Moving from an SMB to Mid Market Sales Strategy? The Biggest Things to Consider

Rachel Long:

So welcome, everyone. This is the webinar on The Biggest Things to Consider When Moving from SMB to Mid Market. So with Erika from Allego and James from Aircall. Thanks for joining us today. I’ll let these guys intro themselves in a second, but I just wanted to welcome you all a webinar and thank you for joining us. Just a quick overview of our agenda today. So James and Erika are going to be going through their key points on how to tackle your go-to-market strategy when you’re making this transition, how you can prepare yourself and your business with the processes when you do make this change, and setting yourself and your team up for success.

So what have they learnt in their experiences and what success looks like for them and how they can really help you. One of the main questions we always get is if the recording will be after the session, it will be. So yeah, the recording will be sent round and feel free to use the chat box for any questions you have. We’ll take these at the end, but feel free to just keep putting them through the chat box so you don’t forget. And I will pass over to Erika and James to start their introductions and go from there.

Erika Bzdel:

Excellent. Well, thank you guys. Really happy to be here today. This actually is a topic that’s kind of near and dear to my heart. As one of the first employees and founding members of Allego, I’ve been fortunate enough over the course of about eight years to see the sales organization move from one small group of sellers to an entire bifurcated team of small business mid-market, inside sales, and enterprise, which is what I run at this point. I run all of our North American enterprise sales. So near and dear to my heart and something that we’re really proud of being able to develop and promote from within. Happy to be here today to kind share some of those with you. [inaudible 00:01:48], my friend.

James Mensforth:

Thank you. Thank you. So hi, everyone. I’m James. I’m a sales director at Aircall. I look after our UK and island markets. So I joined Aircall about six months ago from what at the time was called Facebook, and is now all certainly rebranded to Meta. So I was working to help grow out Facebook’s first B2B SaaS business. So the last six months, I’ve been sort of working to grow out Aircall’s UK [inaudible 00:02:13] team, which is a big new focus area for us.

It’s something that we’ve always obviously had a presence in, but not a local presence. Historically, we’ve done that from Paris. So last six months has been about building our head count, our processes, and structure. And you mentioned Erika, this is near and dear to your heart. It’s very near and dear to our heart as well over here. This is something that we are right in the thick of right now. We call it moving from [inaudible 00:02:34]. So I’d love to say we’ve cracked all the topics that we’re about to talk about, but we are absolutely work in progress in all of them. They’re very much top of mind for us, so I’m hoping that we’ll pick up some tips as well at the same time.

Rachel Long:

Awesome.

Erika Bzdel:

This should be a good session.

James Mensforth:

Thanks, Rachel. So I’ll take this one and kick off. This one is one of the ones that we are spending most of our time on right now, which is this ongoing qualification of opportunities and it’s a frequent pain point that we’ve seen at Aircall as we transition from being quite an SMB focused business into moving market. And we are feeling this can be a real sort of shock point for reps as they’re starting to make that move. The sort of one and done qualification of SMB doesn’t always land for you as you’re starting to move upmarket. And there’s a lot of things that need to change as we start to understand the sort of added complexity of what larger organizations look like, how they make their decisions, and just the number of decision makers that are involved in making that decision happen.

So I think we’ve seen, I think across certainly when we were both doing the same thing at Facebook, there’s a much deeper need to really understand the pain that you can drive and be able to link the benefit of your product back to the pain that they’re feeling and the outcomes that you can drive for them from a business perspective. I think that’s much more key and it’s much more unusual for your first point of contact to be the person that’s going to be able to make that decision for you on their own in a larger organization. It’s certainly probably unlikely the person you’re talking to in the first case in a larger organization is also the person that’s using the product or is on their own going to care about the features in the same way that probably somebody might have done in an SMB world.

So it’s a real pain point. And being able to understand that, understand what those decision making process look like, what the compelling events look like for these organizations and really starting to challenge yourself on a continuing basis as a rep to what it is and where we’re at on an ongoing basis, is going to be really key so that you dodge those nasty surprises in later stages that suddenly sort of throw you a bit of a curve ball. I think in some cases, for us, we’ve certainly seen people a little bit afraid to ask the questions that they don’t want to ask because they might get an answer they don’t like. I’m sure you’ve seen that as well, Erika. Is that something that you guys have come across on your side?

Erika Bzdel:

Oh, that’s always the hardest, right? It’s that go for the no early that no one really wants to do. I think you nailed it. I think discovery is never more important as you move upmarket, that you’re continually in a process of discovering even throughout the sales process. And I think it’s not just, well it’s tying the pain and the solution that you can bring to the organization, it’s also understanding the structure of their organization so you can match to their buying. And a lot of times, you’ll think you know your customer profile and the personas that you want to get out to, but you might be blindsided by that business unit you didn’t realize is now in a large organization, part of the process. So it’s asking the constant questions and being much more of a consultant and asking, “Hey, who in this organization could potentially stop this for you?” I try to understand from a business unit perspective to how are they going to buy internally? How do they procure this internally? Because it’s vastly different the larger the org gets.

James Mensforth:

Yeah, 100%. And I think it’s a big mentality shift. I think we certainly see… At times, we have people who assume that qualification is done by the time they get that handover from the SDR, and it’s just impossible for you to know that stuff at this early stage. There’s no way that an SDR has figured out what that decision making process is. They don’t know what the criteria is at that stage, they don’t know who else needs to be in the room. And I think viewing it as an initial foot in the door and then knowing that you need to keep going and getting deeper into this and continuing to prod in the right places. And when you do find that red flag, not being afraid to lose quickly is super key as you go upmarket. And it’s certainly one that we’re still struggling with, but I think is really integral to make it a successful sort of transition.

Erika Bzdel:

I think lose fast, that last point that you have is so critical whether you make it or break it in your first… When you transition up from downmarket to upmarket, sales cycles typically get a little longer as the sales gets more complex. So not only is it for the benefit of your potential client to align and constantly do discovery, it’s good for you as a seller. You have 365 days to make that quote and that sales cycle just got longer. So knowing where to focus your time is of the utmost importance. And I think that’s where you see a lot of pitfalls of sellers coming up into that enterprise type space. And it sounds so great and they’re hearing happy ears from a handful of business units, and you don’t realize that there’s a red flag waiting around the corner for you that could derail you. So I think it’s critical.

James Mensforth:

100%. I think the thing also that we are seeing and we certainly saw in my last gig, is typically this move upmarket often comes with you leaning more on outbound. Probably you’re maybe starting to lean more on partners or your ecosystem a little bit more. You’re probably a little bit less reliant on inbound demand that’s sort of already at a decision making stage by the time you first talked to them. You need to be the person helping to move them along the process and moving them from that early stage awareness and down. And I think as a result of that, there’s often stages where your buyers won’t know that there’s red flags and they may not know how to buy this stuff. And that makes a big difference.

Erika Bzdel:

Absolutely.

James Mensforth:

Cool. Should we click onto the next one, Rachel? Nice. This one goes pretty hand in hand I think, multithreading. The ongoing qualification and multithreading, Erika and I were just talking about right before this started, they are very hand in hand in how this stuff works and how you’ll be successful. And I think again, going back to qualification of your initial opportunity, I think in SMB, assuming you’ve got… We are very lucky, we have a very strong SDR and BDR team at Aircall. And assuming that your opportunity has been pretty well qualified, you can usually make a decent assumption. I would always discourage reps from making that assumption, but you can usually be in a decent position to say that the person you’re talking to will be an influencer on that decision, maybe they’re a decision maker on their own, or there will at least be a part of the committee that’s going to help make that decision, perhaps with one to three to maybe five others.

As you move upmarket, I think every time I look up the research on this, the number of stakeholders involved in these decisions is going up all the time. I think the last thing I read was sort of five or seven or 10, but we know it’s going to get increasingly complex. We know that in larger organizations, people just can’t buy on their own. It’s somebody’s job if they get this decision wrong in a lot of cases. And I think as a result of that, this multithreading is something that is super key for you to really understand what your customer needs, what their decision making process looks like, and really starting to understand the different needs of all of your different stakeholders. How have you seen that from enterprise side, Erika?

Erika Bzdel:

I totally agree. And I think two major factors are critical with multithreading. One, is making sure as a seller, you understand the potential personas in the stakeholder group. Because sometimes, you might have IT now coming in a bigger way that they didn’t before, and/or marketing, or legal, or some other business unit that traditionally in a smaller business, they can just handle, they wear multiple hats. So really understanding the persona and the value that each persona is going to get is critical.

And I think also too, when you talk about enterprise or upmarket longer deal cycles, longer time to close, there’s more of an opportunity that your one or two stakeholders lose a role, changes a role. And it happens. It’s so frustrating that you go through an entire sales process and you’re close. And if you’re not multithreaded and you’re one or two champions, executives take another role or leave the company, you’re taking multiple steps back. So constantly getting the pool of people, we call it herding cats all the time, right? Getting everyone that could potentially help you in this process is critical, because the longer deal cycles leave more risk.

James Mensforth:

And that sort of prospect key POC moving or suddenly going dark or suddenly ghosting you is the sort of stuff that keeps me up at night, to be honest. It’s terrifying when it happens, particularly when you know that your quota is riding on it and particularly when you’re looking ahead and there’s always a risk because you’ve only got that one person on the opportunity, you’ve only got one person you are really engaged with. And I think the things that… You mentioned bringing in IT, but I think these are things that as you switch from SMB upmarket or start making that shift is just stuff that reps aren’t always aware that they need to do.

Bringing in your IT person early, making sure that you’re asking the question earlier on about who is actually the economic buyer? Who is the decision maker here? And finding the right time to bring that person in or find excuses to invite them into the conversation, I think is something that you really want to do as early as possible. I think maybe it’s that you invite extra people along when you’re moving from a high level to a more contextualized demo. Maybe your technical validation call is a good excuse to bring an IT person in. But I think the earlier you can ask and the more you can find those right points to bring these people in, the better you can hopefully do it without putting your key prospect’s nose out of joint and making them feel like you’ve gone around them more or above them, which is never overly well received.

Erika Bzdel:

Right. Yeah. Always about supporting them and supporting their buying process. But the more you understand how people play together… The more people involved, the more potential politics you have too. So the more you can get embedded with multiple people, you start knowing who you can pair up, who you can utilize, and who is the potential… Just in the previous slide, who could potentially try to derail this for your buyer. Not for you, but for your buyer. So you know how to navigate around that and you’re doing the dance with them, and they feel like they have a partner in it.

James Mensforth:

Yeah, 100%. And I think one of the things we are starting to try and do as well, is get people to start thinking about what does that org chart look like? And as you said, sort of start to try and figure out who do we not have yet? Who’s likely involved in this conversation that isn’t yet engaged, that maybe even the prospect doesn’t know they need to have? Maybe this is the first time they’re buying, making a decent investment in software in their role. If they’re in a more operations or IT role, maybe they’ve received the sort of instruction to go off and find this sort of thing, but they don’t necessarily know that who else needs to be involved. And I think as you said, helping support them and making that work and understanding who they need to be talking to and who you need to be talking to is key to do. And ideally, as early as possible so that it doesn’t come as a nasty shock later on.

Erika Bzdel:

I can honestly say early on in the days, we work with highly regulated industries. And to the point of both of these slides, we knew that in certain industries, regulatory and compliance is going to be a big factor in us being successful. And we knew in one kind of sub-industry that we’re working within, that could be a monster hurdle, not necessarily someone that’s going to really jump on. And we would push that and try to build this consensus with the business and then ultimately, we get the compliance and just slowed way down to a grinding halt. So now, to your point, we asked for that early. We said, “Hey, what is the culture? What does that look like in regulatory compliance?” Bring them up early, even kind of separate the working sessions so that they get everything they need without derailing something. So this multithreading is critical on lots of different fronts.

James Mensforth:

Yeah. But I think your point, as a buyer back at Facebook, my key learning honestly when we needed something, was get InfoSec done early on. And I think having had a bit of experience, that was always key. That’s going to increase your sales cycle to at least four to six months. So the bigger the organization, the earlier on you kick that sort of thing off. Cool.

Erika Bzdel:

Absolutely.

James Mensforth:

Click on the next one, Rachel. Great. This one is I think something that my team hear me talking about way too much and probably a little bit sick of it at this stage, but I think is really key. And we’ve already sort mentioned cycle times, the risk to your quota from increased cycle times and additional complexity. And I think this is something that we are right in the midst of trying to build out at Aircall and really trying to embed what good looks like for us in terms of how we are managing opportunities through the deal cycle as we make that transition from more transactional opportunities, I think.

As I said earlier on, a one core close in SMB is amazing. It’s really great when you can have it. It doesn’t happen very often upmarket, unfortunately. And I think that again, is a mentality shift to start adopting a really repeatable process that helps us, as a sales organization and as a sales rep, to really understand how we mitigate our risks there. How do we understand where our opportunities are really standing? And what can we do to influence the win rates here? And what can we do to influence this on an individual level, a deal that suddenly is so much more significant to our quotas than velocity deals were in the past?

So yeah, I think we said that a poorly managed buyer experience can be really damaging. I think that’s true on both sides. It’s true that you may burn a good prospect that you would like to build a partnership with, but it’s also really damaging for you, as an individual account exec. If you manage that poorly and it slips out of your forecast or even worse, you lose it altogether and they go to competitor, that’s deeply damaging for both parties.

Erika Bzdel:

Yeah, I would say especially as you have a seller trying to make the transition up, one of the biggest things is that, oh my gosh, good sales skills will translate very well in any market, but the complexity can be overwhelming for all the reasons we just discussed. So the more you can set guide rails, the more you can show them what good looks like from a handful of enterprise or upmarket sellers and set those playbooks and guide rails of what works? What have we seen work? Because typically, the veterans, they’ve made millions of dollars in mistakes.

So how do you not replicate that? And there’s some kind of tried and true processes there. It makes it less daunting and a little bit more repeatable when someone can walk in and say, “Okay, the guide rails around an opportunity like this are X and here’s the content that works or resonates. Here’s the personas I should be reaching out to. Here’s the potential pitfalls.” So having that and being able to lay it down and share it even with the people coming upmarket, so it’s a way to fake it till you make it from best practices and things that you glean from the market already.

James Mensforth:

Yeah, 100%. I think those clear books, clear playbooks that you talk about are really key in that… Very, very helpful for you as an individual rep coming into this and having something to pick up. Really beneficial as a sales manager and sales leadership to be able to have an idea that there is some repeatability in what your team are doing and start being able to compare apples for apples, particularly as you’re moving into a new segment. You’re going to have to throw out a lot of the metrics that you relied on in SMB. Like, they’re not always going to apply for you anymore. You’re going to have to start from scratch in understanding what does work and what does good look like as a benchmark? And I think that might mean that you have to go off and build out your scorecards of what a great discovery or demo call looks like.

It might mean that you need to really dredge up your entry and exit criteria for your sales stages and really review those, embed them, make sure that your reps are sort of living and breathing them so they can really understand where their opportunity is at. I think it might even mean going further and having recommended next best actions at each stage and thinking about what templates you have from a follow-up and always make sure that your reps are clear on what happens next. Because I think certainly, what we see occasionally, is that we store our own deals because we’re not totally sure what the next step is. How do we keep driving this forward? I think we certainly see times where we have meetings booked in the calendar, but we’re not totally sure what it is that we’re going to use that meeting for. And that just means that we’re dragging out our own sales cycles, which is sort of the opposite of what we want.

Erika Bzdel:

But the more repeatable the process, the more repeatable and more accurate your forecasting is, which I’m sure any leader on the call would be like, “That’s a great thing to have, too.”

James Mensforth:

That’s a very nice thing to have. Yeah, absolutely.

Erika Bzdel:

Yeah. I think one of the critical things about repeatable process leads us into the next slide really well. Team based selling, there we go. Not a whole lot of bullets here. I think as you move upmarket, both from an internal perspective, what we just talked about, is collaboration is critical. Collaboration internally among the sales organization as well as any resources that they may have, whether that’s inside sales, that’s sales engineers that could be dedicated marketing. That collaboration is critical because that’s your internal team that is going to help you be successful. I think one of the biggest differences from downmarket to upmarket, is the buyers expect kind of a team selling approach. Because not only does it help manage multiple resources and give you lots of different roles to play in terms of sometimes good cop, bad cop within negotiations, but it also gives them a level of comfort in a large organization. That if they partner with you, they’re partnering with something bigger and that you can handle a large scale deployment.

So the more you move from that lone wolf, “I’m the rep, I’m the AE, I’m the one selling to you,” but actually selling the team, selling all the value and the resources that come within your organization really helps. And you become the quarterback, more the consultative trusted advisor. That’s kind of where you always want to be selling from in these large accounts. They expect it. That’s the way they sell, they understand it and they expect it. That if you’re going to be supporting a larger organization, even if it’s just on appearance, you’re going to have to appear bigger, larger.

And for some of us in smaller companies, that sometimes takes that really tight collaboration internally to say, “All right, I need you to play good cop here. You’re coming in as the head of strategy, the sales engineer in this role.” And he might have been your SDR five minutes ago. So you can get a little creative with it. But the team selling approach, that team based approach is a big mind shift for a lot of sellers. Going from that lone wolf to a quarterback and knowing that you’re going to have to pull in other resources to try to help you. I’d be interested in your feedback, James, what you’re seeing internally as you’re making that jump up.

James Mensforth:

I think that you really nailed it in terms of having to make that mindset shift from lone wolf to quarterback. I think it’s also when your organization is set up in a way that works for high velocity, very repeatable sales, you tend to land in a world where I think you are actually relatively siloed between teams. Because everyone’s process works very well, it’s a very well-oiled machine at that stage. So it can be unusual to sort suddenly bring in a CS point of contact pre-sale, or an onboarding person presale, or a solutions engineer presale on a very early call to engage with people there and bring it in. And I think it’s definitely a mentality shift, but it’s something as you said, that larger organizations expect and they need. They want to know that the right people are lined up to support them.

They have many, many organizations that they can go and buy from in most cases. And the people that you are putting in front of them are really compelling in terms of differentiating you and making you an organization they feel they can trust and partner with. So it may well be that you need to, because you’re talking to a more technical point of contact earlier on, bringing a more technical counterpart on your side earlier on. You need to really be able to speak their language.

And I think it’s unrealistic as you move upmarket to expect an AE to be able to do all of that as all in one, can do it all. It’s very unlikely to find. I think they’re one in a million AEs who can do CSM work as well as a CSM or can talk to the technical pieces as well as a solution engineer. So bringing in the right people at the right time and being able to engage with them. As well as at times, use it as a bit of an excuse for multithreading. If you can bring in your solution engineer and bring in an IT person who’s not yet engaged, it’s really key for these bigger deals.

Erika Bzdel:

And I think one of these things internally too, going back to the collaboration piece, it’s critical for you internally as an AE. Think anytime you introduce anyone, even your trusted partners internally, it adds risk. So you need to be on point, you need to be collaborating early and prep people internally often so that they know exactly… To your point earlier, we’re not totally sure what we’re doing on this call. Everyone on the call knows exactly what the agenda is so that they play the right role. So it goes back to collaboration. Your internal teams can really make this speed up for you or uh oh, introduce a risk that you were trying to avoid. You’ve got to let them know what your plan is and whether that’s moving the call forward and/or what the goal of them being on the call is. So you’re quarterbacking in a way that traditionally, you might not have need to downmarket. So that collaboration point internally and having trusted teammates internally is so critical.

One thing I was going to bring up in this piece too, you actually touched on it, James, is that the high velocity kind of mindset of the smaller business. And I think in a lot of this presentation so far, we’ve talked about the things you need to adjust and change as you move upmarket. And this kind of call out in terms of velocity when I’m thinking about the way it pertains to outbound, the way you prospect and outbound actually translates very well to enterprise. And I think the mindset of the smaller business seller when they move upmarket is, “Oh. Now, I’ve got other people in this team based selling approach that are going to help me.”

Yes, but the most successful enterprise AEs are the ones that continue the same rigor around outbound prospecting. You might have 10 accounts versus a 100. But within those 10 accounts, there’s still hundreds of contacts that you can be going after and those that are the most successful making the transition. And I’m lucky to say, there’s three in our team that came up all the way from inside sales to top mid market to our top enterprise representatives. They never lost sight of that rigor or that intensity in terms of their own outbound prospecting. They still treated it as if it was high velocity, “I’ve got to touch them all. I’ve got to talk to all these people.” And that translates no matter where you go in any kind of selling. So I wanted to call that out, because I think we’d show all the things that you need to adjust. Some things, just keep going with what’s working well with you because it’ll translate well in enterprise.

James Mensforth:

[inaudible 00:26:28] I need to get you into talk to my team, Erika, about this sort of thing because I’ve been banging this drum for six months now. But it’s super key and I think as you said, it’s not really something you should keep, it’s something you have to keep and probably do more of because your risk is increasing. Every time you take on a bigger quota and start managing larger deals, that’s great. You might have an amazing end of portal or end of fiscal, but you need to provide yourself with that coverage. You need to make sure that you are continuing to get out there and taking the control of your own destiny, because leaving yourself to sink or swim over larger opportunities is a risky place to be.

Erika Bzdel:

Dangerous. And that’s a good segue to my next one. It’s almost like you knew what the next slide was. Proof of value and proof of concepts. I use this a lot. Our team does this a ton. To your point, you could bank your entire year on two deals and we all know what happens when one potentially slips, right? You always need things to be backfilling your pipeline. And you’re in the upmarket space and those deals are longer, larger and you might not have the same size territory to work within. It’s critical that you have little, small opportunities to be able to support yourself and support the business. One of the biggest things that you’ll see in enterprise, is very rarely, maybe in the small business space, you might be able to land majority of the organization up front or your potential user base up front.

Often in an enterprise, some big conglomerate with a 100,000 employees is, I’ve never seen it yet, going to buy the entire suite all upfront. It always kind of comes down to like a land and expand approach. So you create this ground swell underneath you of multiple different kind of proof of concepts within buying units that creates this kind of almost fear of missing out. It helps build business cases, it helps build for larger term deployment, larger, more substantial investment. So you’ve got to reframe your thought process of, “I’m going to come in and pick up all of the potential population up front and really reframe to more of these small manageable bite size pieces,” that an enterprise can buy quicker under the radar of procurement or sourcing. And it allows you all this groundswell of activity and potential deals moving forward in the future.

So I think that again, to the velocity and to the cadence at which was successful in small mid-market opportunities works well here if you keep that mindset of, “I’m going to land and expand. I’m going to get in where I can get in quickly, and then I’m going to prove value and spread it across the organization.” It’s a much more palatable buy when you talk about a large organization and it’s much better for you for understanding your potential revenue moving forward in the year if you’ve got multiple pilots that are going to now convert. So I’m just curious. At Aircall, do you do a lot of pilot type scenarios or is that something that you’re very-

James Mensforth:

Yeah, we are increasingly starting to do more of these. And I think the difference for us has been, as we’ve sort of shifted upmarket really, has been that… The tendency before has been to view a proof concept in a trial are sort of interchangeable and that they’re sort of the same thing. They’re not a land and expand. It’s a trial until, as you said, the whole organization buys and then it’s a sort of one and done approach. And I think getting the foot in the door and being able to prove the value and get deeper into the organization. And again, back to our previous slide, like bringing in the right resources then to help make sure that your customer is then starting to get more and more value out of your product is really key.

And I think the additional pieces as you move upmarket, is I think you need to get much, much tighter on what a success criteria looks like for any time based proof concept and really understanding, “Okay. If we are running some sort of proof concept for a period of time that is leading to a larger opportunity or there’s some of trial period involved, what are the success criteria for that? Are they things that you can hopefully objectively measure so that you can come back at the end and it’s not a subjective like, “I didn’t really like where that button was positioned or I don’t like the color of the background on your product.”” Somethinng along those lines.

It’s very clear and hopefully something you can present back to people, but also I think it helps avoid this becoming sort of an extended part of an RFP process or something along those lines, which is something that you see much more of as you upmarket. Much more formally managed procurement processes are going to be more and more frequent for account execs. And I think being really clear on what these are for and how to use them successfully versus allowing them to be totally driven by the prospect, I think is really key for your ability to get into that organization and then go deeper.

Erika Bzdel:

Yeah, I think the success criteria, the timeline, and then their decision making criteria. Make sure that those are aligned so that no one internally is wasting a lot of time on something that’s either unachievable or that is ultimately not going to move forward, or doesn’t have the potential to move forward in a bigger scale. I think you hit the nail on the head with that. It’s critical from a success perspective. I think if you don’t have anything else to add about that, I think that’s all of the kind of content that we had to share with you guys. I’d love to hear questions or comments or if this resonated or didn’t hit the mark at all based on some of the things that we shared. Looking at the chat. Either that or this is going to be the easiest webinar we’ve ever done.

James Mensforth:

It is nearly 5:00 here in the UK, so it’s nearly time for us to go and get beer if not.

Erika Bzdel:

I said you should bring the pints with you. Excellent. Well, you guys, if there’s nothing more for James and I and you’re letting us off the hook, you could easily contact us here and I’m happy to continue the conversation after the fact. I know this is something, like I said, we both said it’s near and dear to our heart, so happy to have a conversation.

James Mensforth:

Thanks, Erika.

Rachel Long:

Thanks Erika and James, talk to you soon.

James Mensforth:

Thanks, everyone. Cheers.

Erika Bzdel:

Thank you.

Rachel Long:

Bye.

Erika Bzdel:

Bye.